In Closing- Gone for Good

Well overall, I enjoyed reading this book... it was my kind of book.... the only part I did not like was the Sheila/Norah.... I agree with Florit... it was just unbelievable... I like believing that the events that take place have a ring of truth to them.... that was just a bit much for me.

It has been great blogging.... I feel like I am part of the 21st century... we must do it again... next time someone else can run the blog discussions.... see ya.... have a great school year!

Julie/Katy

Hi... okay... we don't know alot about Julie, but I gather that Julie was basically a typical teenager. She also seemed to have a " connection" with John Asselta a.k.a the ghost. It seems that she got turned around by Sheila Rogers when she went to college. I don't quite understand why she never told Will that she was pregnant... maybe she knew how "non-committal" he was and she figured why bother...on the other hand... maybe she was embarrassed about the whole thing....I could not figure that part out.

Katy... now can you imagine growing up looking just like your sister... that reminded me of Nicole Simpson and her sister( can't remember her name) but she looks just like Nicole with darker hair, so that is how I imagine Katy... she looks just like her sister. That must be a bummer to walk around and your parents have difficulty looking at you. Anyways... she had "hutzpa" I mean, she knew all along that Ken had killed her sister, and she was just trying to get to him somehow. The only thing that I did not understand was, the fight that took place in Will's apartment... I still do not know if that was really staged. The author made her character really tough for 18. I mean she took a hell of a beating even if it was staged!!!

Squares/Wanda

Okay... before I actually found out who Squares really was ( background ) I felt he was the most "real" character in the book. I mean... he seemed to MAKE Will face reality. BUUUUT as I continued to read, this character has some really deep character flaws! I mean who doesn't, but I found his to be paradoxical even oxymoronic!!! He was a skin head... Nazi sympathizer... I presume in his youth... I have no idea... how he turned into this "Yoga" Guru...( I stopped at this point to go back and see if the author clued us in on the transformation) I know that he became popular after some celebrity "discovered" him from his squares workout, so I guess his celebrity status was serendipitous... but at times I thought that maybe he was working for the FBI- he was a very mysterious character... lots of blank spaces. Even with all of his "realness" he still had demons that he had difficulty facing. I mean he wanted Will to face reality, but he was not real good at it for his own life and situation. He seemed to connect with the street kids even better than Will... he knew how to "hook" them.... Will did not seem to be savvy on the street. Squares fit right in.... so I am concluding that he was probably very much like the street people... Will did not come from the street.

When he found out that Wanda was pregnant... I was not sure if he did not want the child because it would be mixed... or b/c he did not want a child with a black woman... you know... some people are okay with black people and white people together BUT they DO NOT want them to procreate!!! So... I was not sure what his reasoning was... maybe he felt he would not be a good father because he did not have a good example or an example at all.

I am sure that Wanda knew about his background(I hope ) ... I totally sympathized with her reasons for wanting to have the baby... as far as she knew she could not have any children. What a surprise...I just don't know if she should have left the decision up to Squares as to whether or not to keep it.... I mean... if you never thought you could have a baby and now you are pregnant... this is probably your last chance... but maybe she was just too fragile to not have Squares support. What I wonder is how you have a baby under these conditions... you know... he has a past and so does she... maybe that was the problem.

Sheila a.k.a Norah

Now... I have issues with this character!!!! Where do I begin!!!! First of all...I can intellectually understand why an abused woman would want to disappear. So... I guess in order to do that, you have to lie on a regular basis to avoid being found. What was soo unreal to me... the writer, Harlen Coben, relocates Norah to another country to avoid being found by her husband.... that was not realistic for me. Maybe that actually happens, buttttt it was a stretch or me. Okay once she gets there she hooks up with the REAL Sheila and Ken. Okay it is plausible to switch identities. No problem there.BUTTT to return to the states and look up the brother, WILL, that was just too far fetched for me. That was Hokie!!!!!!!! So... how real is your love when you are interjecting yourself into someone else's life based on false pretenses??????? I guess my problem is more with the author than the actual character. That is why I said that Sheila a.k.a Norah should have stayed dead!!! I just did not like that part of the plot!!!!!

Now... if Norah REALLLYYY loved WIll, don't you think she could/should have come clean once she had to go underground!!!! What does that say about her character!!! I did not like this character in the plot!!!! I guess you see that!!!!

Will & Ken

Hi... Okay... here is my take on Will. I think that Will was a good guy that believed and looked for the good in people. He was not judgemental. He seemed to accept them as they were. I could not help but think of him in terms of us because of his job and the population of people that he dealt with on a daily basis. I mean didn't you feel like some of the "clients" he talked about were our students? But I digress!!! On the other hand this non-judgemental perception that he had of people allowed for him to be vulnerable. He in some ways was a "wimp" I mean... maybe what I am calling "wimp" was the fact that he did not like confrontation. So... he avoided it almost at any cost. He idolized his brother Ken. I think he knew what Ken was... but Ken was his big brother... Maybe he had a limit created in his own mind about what he thought Ken would be capable of. Ken was just a "bad seed" He was not a good person... he was self-centered.... self preservation was his mantra!!! He seemed to use whomever could do the most good for him at the time. I know the type.... I mean... he kept Will's daughter for all of those years to avoid getting captured for the murder of her mother Julie.... what kind of person knowingly does that??? I understood his not wanting to be captured, but... 12 years Will never knew he had a daughter.... I know some of that is Julie's fault... we will get to her!!! :)

In closing

Well... from the response I think that we all enjoyed the book! I waited for a whole year... the subject matter was very different and very thought provoking. As I read, I could not help but say... why? I am a rather absolute person- yes there are times when the issued get "muddied" but in this case or cases similar, I think David was wrong for putting this in motion. BUT what do you expect when he lived his whole adult life as a lie!?! Giving Phoebe away was just one more layer of the lie... I think he wanted everything to be perfect!! Life is not perfect! Sometimes your lemons are not only sour but just rotten... how you make lemonade with rotten lemons... maybe you throw those away and get new ones or mix the two!?!

I also think that sometimes we underestimate the core of people. We make assumptions, sometimes valid based on past experiences, but this causes an error in judgement. Since David and Norah got married after only 3 months, neither one of them knew each other or enough about the other's past to make really good decisions. Am I saying that a relationship like that could never turn out right? Absolutely not! I think it depends on the people, but in this case there were sooo many skeletons... especially on David's part. Ultimately, Paul and Phoebe were the victims. Children are the victims in adult decisions. They ( children ) don't control being born, they get what they get. Paul and Phoebe did not get to choose their parents. So they were subject to alllllll of the decisions that their parents made, both directly and indirectly.

Well... that is my take on the book. I now look forward to continue with Gone for Good. As I discussed in the email we will do this one by characters. Look for the first post for Gone for Good- on Thursday! The title for our blog will also be updated to show both books!!!

Discussion Question #10

From what I can infer from Norah's description of her mother and her sister, I have a dichotomous view. What do I mean? There is a description in the book where Norah's is remembering what her mother said to her about always being a lady even if she did not marry. I gather from that paragraph that Norah was the "good"daughter. Ummm... she was kind of a prisoner of what her mother thought she should be compared to Bree. I mean it sounds like her mother wanted or expected her to be a perfect lady/wife/mother. Consequently, she complied with this. So, how would this have affected Phoebe? I think that possibly since Phoebe was less than perfect, she may have had difficulty dealing with the imperfection of her daughter. ON THE OTHER HAND.... I gathered from the display of love and affection for Paul ( as a baby and early on) that she could have been a very loving mother. I mean... it is difficult for me to answer this because by the time she had met Phoebe, Norah had gone through many changes in finding herself. Ultimately, I don't think she would have given Phoebe away...

If David had not given Phoebe away I think he may have been able to face his demons, and stop living the lie that he had created for his adult life. I think that he and Norah would have been able to grow together, and compliment each other/support in those areas that were so painful for both of them. It is interesting that he had created a life with what could be viewed as a "little white lie" by not correcting his college admission papers. He just kept layering lie after lie after lie for his whole adult life... not just with the birth of Phoebe. Maybe he just wasn't a truthful person deep down on the inside, he would lie when it wasn't even necessary, so maybe being truthful with Norah would not have changed him one bit!

Discussion Question #9

Okay... I have actually been struggling with this one. In my logical mind, I know that "shielding" someone from a circumstance that is unfortunate, uncomfortable, possibly detrimental ( literally and figuratively ) is wrong! I mean... you may think you have thought about all of the ramifications, but somehow, you miss something because you can't foresee the future. You really don't know how the other person(s) might respond or what makes them respond the way that they do. I do believe that there are situations that are not as devastating as this one, where "omitting" or somehow changing the course of events MAY be warranted. Even in those instances, sometimes what may have been considered minor can mushroom into something that no one ever thought about. Essentially, when you do this you are lying. I know that you want to shield/protect your loved ones, but it is always better to tell the truth and deal with the reality rather than lie and alter the course of events for the sake of "protecting" ,and I use that loosely, your loved one or yourself.

Discussion Question #8

Okay are you ready for my take on this??? :) I think on some level Rosemary reminded David of his sister June. There is actually a description of her eating eggs the way that his sister June had eaten her eggs. I think that him thinking of Rosemary as June allowed for him to be open and honest with her. I mean... she was the one person who knew who he really was ( I am talking about June) She knew that he was David Henry McAllister. I think he took care of her for many different reasons. First of all, she was pregnant with no one to take care of her... He would take care of her as penance for not taking care of Norah after the birth of their daughter Phoebe. He could assuage his guilt by making sure that Rosemary, who was down on her luck, was provided for... you know back in those days... if you got pregnant out of wedlock as they called it, you were shunned. You in many cases were sent away just like he tried to send Phoebe away. The difference is that once you had the baby you could re-enter society. With Down's Syndrome, you did not have that choice if you were sent to an institution. So... I think this gave David a "way" to fix his decision regarding Phoebe. I also think that since subsequent to him bringing Rosemary home he divorces Norah, he gets to "re-capture" what he lost with Paul. He could never connect with Paul because he felt so guilty...He connected with Rosemary's son. He took great pleasure in watching him grow.

Discussion Question #7

Okay...The wasp nest is very symbolic to me... on a lot of different levels... First- Norah's stomping out the wasp nest to me is Norah's way of "killing" her life as it is currently...I think that Norah had been kind of "void" for a long time... even though she had the memorial service for Phoebe, she never really got past that... not that she should have... I think she had been grieving for all of that time. David did not want anymore children, and so since Paul was getting ready to go to school/ or he was already in school, she really was kind of lost. Her focus was no longer on Paul, at least not during most of the day. This is when her drinking got worse. In the process... she just kind of existed. Secondly... I think this is the point at which she "reinvented" herself. Norah realize that she needed something for herself. She needed something to call her own. The fight with the wasp was in my opinion her way of fighting her demons, and letting go of her frustrations, disappointments, and of her old self. On another level, symbolically, wasp sting - the sting is painful- this could be a way for Edwards to show that Norah was taking the "sting" out of all of the painful memories/events of her life.

Discussion Question #5

I must apologize... I thought I posted #5, but I did not open a new post when I did #6 so I inadvertantly erased it.

Let me see if I remember what I wrote-Oh yeah "Out of body Experience" I think that the author uses this to describe what a person feels like when they have no control over a situation. I mean when David describes this during the birth of his children... everything was happening TO him... he had no choice but to deliver the babies, I mean he was not an OB, so I think that he was just on "automatic." So he was like a voyeur- watching everything like it is a movie or something!

On the other hand....I also think that you might experience this feeling if you are putting events in motion that will have substantial consequences. This may be a way of "separating" yourself from what is taking place so that you don't have so much guilt. Kind of like - you know when children are molested...they remove themselves from the event as a defense- I don't know if I am expressing myself clearly. I don't remember when this happened to the other characters... but I could see it being a "Buffer" and an "escape"...

Discussion Question #6

Now I must refer back to one of Clarington's post- I think that Caroline somehow had profound insight into David. There was an unspoken bond/connection. I agree with Clarington that she was able to "see" his vulnerabilities.... I don't know... maybe she even could tell that he was hiding something... I don't necessarily mean his identity ( maybe) but just that he had a secret and she had breached his wall/barrier. You know they say"birds of a feather, flock together" so she may have had some secrets of her own. These two "kindred spirits" connected in that moment. This ultimately lead to him making her his accomplice in the decision he made to give away his daughter.

I think David married Norah to escape from Caroline. Norah did not have the insight... I don't get the impression that she was a " deep thinker" at least not early on in the book, so it would have been easier for him to "hide" himself with Norah. I don't have a whole lot to say about this because... Norah's background is pretty vague except for her sister Bree. So it is difficult for me to really take a chunk out of this one... I can't wait to read your responses so that you can give me some insight!!

Discussion Question #4

This question is really a bioethical question- I am going to try to keep my response relatively short because I could go on and on with the many facets this question can have- having a child with Down's Syndrome or any other disability cannot be easy for any parent. They have daily challenges that I have never had with my children-but does that mean that her life is not worth living- No absolutely not. Because of my belief in God and what I believe to be true according to his word, I don't think we( man) has the right to determine who should live and who should die, and who should be sent away because of a genetic mutation. Now do not confuse this with people that can either be a danger to themselves or to others- I am not talking about that- Phoebe grew up being loved by Al and Caroline- she never knew the difference although I think on some level she was aware that some people did not want her around (just a little). But she loved and she was loved. I am going to stop here because I could go on and on ...

Paul??? Emotionally he was screwed up because of his parents( I place most of the blame on David) but in terms of materially, he had a great quality of life. Emotionally- he had no real sense of who he was- I don't think either one of his parents shared their family lives with him... so he had no one/nothing to refer to. You know... ancestry... how his father came to be who he was... why his mother was the way she was...I also think as a twin, he knew subconsciously that he was incomplete....what are your thoughts?

Discussion Question #3

Okay... the first part of this question is really easy for me to answer- she does not flatly refuse David because she is in love with him. This "act of contrition" kind of bonds them or at least in her mind- bonds her to him. You know alot of people confuse the physicality ( I don't know if that's a word but that is what I want to use :)) of love with the emotional side of love. Even though they have never dated/shared a kiss/both of them are aware of this- love/bond between them. Consequently she does not question what he ask her to do. Now the other questions they are a bit harder to explain- Was she right? I don't see why not, if the alternative is to leave her in an institution to "rot"/"waste" away- I also think that Caroline eventually looked/viewed Phoebe as a way to love David from afar. Phoebe is part of him, and she loves him. Norah. Ummm...She ( Caroline ) could have argued with David about what he was doing... but I go back to what seemed to be acceptable at the time... Children with Down's Syndrome weren't viewed as viable or at least least not the way society defines viable. So... if it was commonplace, maybe the thought never occurred to her to tell Norah, but things got awfully complicated once David told Norah that Phoebe died- Caroline did not know this until she read the paper! so now sure she could have told... but she would also be an accomplice to David once the truth came out-As a mother I would want to know... let me see what you all say!!!! I think she comes to Norah after David's death because... technically he should have told Norah a long time ago... I don't think it was really Caroline's duty to tell.... David caused this mess... he should have cleaned it up! I think Caroline wanted to know that someone would be there to take care of Phoebe if anything ever happened to her or Al. oh by the way- Al is my Hero!!! What a Guy!!!

Discussion Question #2

Oh wow... this question is really deep! I am still trying to understand his psyche. He came from a family that had very little. I don't think that it is unusual for a child/family member to want more than he was born with, but the way that he interprets himself within his family is somewhat odd to me.I think that maybe he feels like an"abberation" because maybe he had a sense of betrayal regarding his sister. I mean here she is with a physical limitation, and it seems as though the family( parents) were just trying to do the best that they could, and yet David seems to be, ummm I don't know, maybe somewhat " self-centered." He saw himself as an abberation because it seems as though he did not want to be a part of the family he was born into. He was different from them. The only valid emotion/concept that he displayed was the fact that, his sister's disability/limitations and death really affected his mother, and he did not want Norah to experience the loss of a child. I can understand that...somewhere... he missed the lesson that... you deal with the hand that you are dealt, and make the very best of it. He thought that by sending his daughter - Phoebe- away that he was making all of the pain/loss go away. He also did not have very much foresight because... he did not realize that Norah's loss of her child would last forever just as his loss of his sister had permeated every facet of his life. He thought that the loss would be temporary and she would get over it! He really did not understand loss at all... until the end of the book!

Discussion Question #1

When David gives the baby to Caroline, my immediate emotional response was-sadness " oh no.... why did he do that?" I felt a deep sense of loss as a mother. I knew that Norah did not "consciously" know he gave the baby away... but mothers, most mothers, have a connection with their children; I knew that she would instinctively know that she had suffered a great loss, and yet she would feel something was "off." I also had a reaction to David- I felt utter "shock" how could a doctor - even a husband- unilaterally decide to give the baby away... I know... the times... I guess we will discuss that later.



Based on the setting and the time period, I understood on an intellectual level that - that was the way things were done due to their lack of knowledge, but really no, I did not understand his motivations at first because aside from the time period, his motivations were not fully understood until later in the book. He really had some issues! Did my understanding grow? Not really!!!! He had some issues....

Ready set go

Ok I've managed to accept Goins' invitation, so what's next? I've finished the book and did enjoy it. Are we Blogging by character, section of the book or ??? let me know.